#20 - Small bets to navigate the content game

In this one we talk about the concept of small bets. That is breaking down your content, business, or product ideas into smaller pieces so you can learn from them quicker. Think about having a portfolio of many small bets vs having a portfolio of few large bets. Luck works in your favour when you have many bets because of the law of large numbers!

Getting good at content is about experimentation. What works for others many not work for you and it's so dependent on you, your voice, and your audience.

Our first Make Now Think Later product small bet is a photoshop plugin! It's linked below.

We hope you enjoy this one, we love hearing your feedback, questions, and suggestions! Contact us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@makenowthinklater⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or send as an email at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.


(00:00) - Intro

(00:39) - The Fillthy plugin

(02:16) - Describing small bets

(06:20) - The Kelly Criteron

(09:29) - Small bets in content

(14:51) - Breaking out of what's working

(18:17) - Conserving energy

(22:10) - You still need to consume content

(24:59) - Staying curious

(26:57) - Consistently making small bets

(30:11) - Fear of alienating when experimenting

Show notes

#19 - 100k YouTube views in 1 week: Behind the scenes

Ben's first YouTube video is out! It's been a week and by all objective measures (that we should probably not be thinking too hard about) it's been a success! 100k views in the first week and the comments have been nothing but supportive.

We talk about what went into making this first video. How it took a lot of rewatching and rerewatching to make it feel snappy, and how a lot of the magic was in the edit and in "killing your darlings". YouTube is a different beast than Instagram. Being so searchable and just with the way the platform is designed, it incentivises more evergreen content — different from Instagram where things feel a bit more fleeting.

The biggest thing that went into it was weeks and months of developing taste by consuming all things YouTube, and all things about making YouTube. Figuring out what you like and don't like. Figuring out what's worked for other people and seeing what parts of those you can take for yourself and you feel will work for you and your context.

Keep it focused on the narrative and the problem. Avoid trying to add all the things that would be nice but are actually not part of the core problem. Edit, edit, edit. Rewatch. Get fresh eyes. Get other's opinions. Edit, edit, edit.

Note: this is actually episode 18, and episode 18 is episode 19.

We hope you enjoy this one, we love hearing your feedback, questions, and suggestions! Contact us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠@makenowthinklater⁠⁠⁠⁠ or send as an email at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.


(00:33) Ben's Youtube Video is released

(04:27) Rewatch, edit, sleep, repeat

(06:27) How to think vs how tos

(09:13) Giving yourself a deadline (or not)

(10:52) YouTube incentivises evergreen content

(13:06) Ideas for a next video?

(15:14) Idea, thumbnail, and transformation

(21:14) Spitballing YouTube ideas for Francis

(31:30) Developing a taste is key

(34:11) Focusing on the problem and avoiding scope creep

(38:10) Combining contract work with streaming

(41:02) Draw it in your style

(42:37) Quick update on Francis' work and wrapping up

Show notes

#18 - The content game is a psychology game

Making content is kinda the easy part. Actually posting it and feeling like it's ever good enough is the hard part. In this one we cover how making content sometimes feels more like a battle of managing yourself.

Francis is frustrated with feeling like he doesn't have the time to make the content. When you're working on an app it takes up all of your time, so to actually make the stuff you have to make time for it. But it might just because he takes it a bit too seriously. Posting is a skill you have to develop, and posting should be enjoyable. But the difference between "should" and "is" is big, and crossing that barrier requires some thought — and unfortunately for him, the best way to get better at posting is to post!

Ben's already felt that one and his posting skill has developed to a point where he can do it almost effortlessly, but for him, the challenge is now not getting too trapped up in the numbers. As he's got some success now, sometimes he feels a bit too attached to the numbers and might have a bit of a tendency to read too much into the different "like" numbers from different posts—especially now that "how well" a post does is now linked to his income.

We also get a bit into some of the numbers in Ben's latest youtube video, how much he's made from ads, and how it's encouraged him to really consider YouTube as a content platform worth investing in.

We hope you enjoy this one, we love hearing your feedback, questions, and suggestions! Contact us on ⁠⁠⁠@makenowthinklater⁠⁠⁠ or send as an email at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.


(00:00) - Intro

(00:58) - Making apps takes up content time

(05:56) - Getting the reps in to start posting anything

(07:41) - ChatGPT reviews Francis's substack post

(12:05) - Never being as good as you think you'll be

(14:02) - Enjoying posting, not enjoying making bad stuff

(17:45) - Posting is a skill itself

(22:34) - The content game is a psychology game

(29:35) - More on posting being a skill

(31:03) - Letting go of the numbers

(38:59) - Making content is more about managing yourself

(41:19) - Numbers for Ben's first YouTube video

(44:57) - You can make a career from YouTube

(51:11) - Wrap up

Show notes

#17 - Building the Capacity to be Consistent, and Cohort Courses

Francis talks about trying to build up the capacity to keep on tweeting more as he starts to build a little bit of momentum. Even though he's only posted 1 recently, it's more than he's been posting in a long time—and the real challenge is keeping that momentum up and trying to improve over time.

Ben's been trying some new stuff to engage with his community by trying out a Draw This In Your Style challenge. We talk about how to make tweets or other images stand out in the timeline, and what Ben's been thinking as he gears up to launch his first YouTube video.

We also touch on Ben's thinking as he works on creating a new course. This one's going to be created in a more slow burn style, but he needed to do the initial crunch as he did for his initial tutorial just to prove that the whole thing could work.

We hope you enjoy this one, we love hearing your feedback, questions, and suggestions! Contact us on ⁠⁠@makenowthinklater⁠⁠ or send as an email at ⁠⁠⁠⁠.


(00:00) - Intro (00:34) - Francis works on posting on Twitter more (07:35) - Ben experiments with #DrawThisInYourStyle (14:15) - From Sketch Notes to YouTube Videos (18:32) - Enhancing Tweets with Visuals (20:47) - Making Images Eye-Catching (26:08) - The Psychology of Offering Free Content with Optional Payment (30:42) - Ben's Path to Creating a YouTube Course (37:58) - Starting Again with Cohort Courses (39:15) - Finding Francis' First Monetization Strategy (43:20) - The Magic of Editing and Targeting Intermediate Audiences (48:08) - Overcoming the Challenge of Consistently Posting Content

Show notes

#16 - Michelle Chan: TikTok success and comics for mental health

Michelle Chan joins us today to discuss how she's found a bit of success on TikTok making short comics and posting them as carousels. TikTok seems to be the most inconsistent of the social platforms. The lows are low, the highs are high and it's kinda hard to predict which one's are which.

She's gone semi-viral with at least one comic, and her most successful one just happens to be the most personal and vulnerable one. Literally a drawing of a slice of her life, in a very clever way. When you're able to capture a feeling so well and resonate with others, you really do resonate though, and some of the comments she's received have really shown that the struggle that she's experienced is real and experienced by others also.

The comic is here!

Michelle's hosting a workshop on "Turning Memories into Meaning Through Comics" on April 22, 2023 in Adelaide at the City Library.

You can find details here!

We hope you enjoy this one, we love hearing your feedback, questions, and suggestions! Contact us on ⁠@makenowthinklater⁠ or send as an email at ⁠⁠.


(00:00) - Special Guest Introduction

(00:41) - Michelle's TikTok Success

(07:32) - Describing the Blob Comic

(09:35) - Therapy Comic Series Idea

(14:10) - Splitting Accounts for Experimentation

(15:50) - Resistance and Excitement from Ideas

(21:18) - Mental Health through Comic Workshops

(26:47) - Wrapping up

Show notes

#15 - Noticing content ideas while you're doing your thing

Once you've found the thing that you're doing, the next step is to find a way to make content from it. But it's not so simple — it's a skill in itself to be able to notice when something is noteworthy enough to make content from, and it's hard enough to do that while you're doing your thing in the first place.

Ben gives some tips as to how he does it. He focuses on noticing the friction more than the content itself, cause when he thinks about the friction then the content comes naturally. Then he'll capture that feeling in his note-taking system (make sure you take the time to write something your future self will actually understand).

We also talk about Ben getting into the YouTube game and how he's getting real close to putting that first video out. The self-doubt and procrastinaty feelings are combing back though! But if you can find a way to push through that and start getting into momentum, then you're most of the way there.

We also go into some deep technical stuff talking about what Francis has been working on, and the content ideas that he's playing with.

We hope you enjoy this one, we love hearing your feedback, questions, and suggestions! Contact us on @makenowthinklater or send as an email at


(00:42) - Noticing content ideas while you're doing your thing

(7:53) - Positives of streaming content

(11:03) - How soon to make the content

(19:11) - Getting into YouTube

(26:17) - Feeling the self-doubt again

(31:47) - Building momentum in making content

(37:55) - Going into Francis' technical stuff

(42:53) - Finding harmony in what you're creating

(44:42) - What is an artist?

(46:39) - Wrapping up

Show notes

#14 - (Over)analysing Youtube, and how else can we price our stuff?

Streaming is one thing, but making polished videos is another. Ben's starting to get to work on YouTube and he's nearly got his first video out. You'd think after doing this whole content creation thing he'd already have the hang of everything but he's finding all the same doubts are coming back. Imposter syndrome. Am I good enough? Perfectionistic tendencies. Even though he's made good headway in conquering all that for his Instagram, it doesn't mean they're gone forever.

We discuss what he's been analysing when he's been thinking about how to make his first video. How the thumbnail and title are worth thinking about before making the video, how to think about story structure, and how he's analysed other channels to figure out what he wants in his channel.

Francis is also back in the saddle a bit as he's gone back to his app building roots. At the end of the day programming is something that he enjoys and has a "passion" for, and he's going to use that as raw material for getting started in the content game.

We also cover some thoughts on different ways to price your products. Taking some lessons from the developer/programming world — are there things that could work for selling info products and courses?

We hope you enjoy this one, we love hearing your feedback, questions, and suggestions! Contact us on @makenowthinklater or send as an email at


(00:46) - Starting YouTube and all the doubts are coming back

(02:23) - Thumbnail and title first for YouTube

(05:43) - Ben's first video: drawing the head

(12:55) - Diversifying the YouTube audience

(17:25) - Francis is making apps again

(24:06) - Not just doing the thing, but making content from it

(28:14) - Tools should focus on the developer/creator experience

(30:45) - Taking a break from long projects

(33:25) - Pricing that grows as your customer grows

(39:34) - A licensing model for bigger customers

(44:37) - A premium on physical things?

(49:56) - Wrapping up

Show notes

#13 - How would you grow if you could start again?

Ben's been upping his streaming game and is working on trying to optimise his processes. Francis has found it a bit frustrating to get going in recent times, feeling a bit time poor. We discuss the impact of different content types, how we'd go about it if we could start again. All the self-doubt still comes in when you think about starting a new thing, and the answer to all that is the same as always.

- Start small

- Think of it as an experimentation

- You don't have to be an expert

- Share your journey

It's funny how we've reiterated this so many times, yet we still forget the same simple lessons. I guess sometimes the hardest things about getting going are the simplest things.

(0:46) - Streaming is a priority for Ben

(6:58) - YouTube may be the next highest impact thing

(9:29) - Different types of video content serve different purposes for reach

(15:19) - If you started a new Instagram account, how would you grow it

(20:15) - How do you get the initial reach with Reels

(24:49) - The beginner questions when starting a new channel

(30:07) - Finding creative ways to get it done

(35:43) - Quality within reason, but you have to post

(39:52) - Focusing on the right metrics

(43:02) - What's your main problem out of those metrics

(49:43) - Starting small and using your personality

(54:35) - Next plans for Francis

We hope you enjoy this one, we love hearing your feedback, questions, and suggestions! Contact us on @makenowthinklater or send as an email at


Show notes

#12 - New experiments in 2023! Fast, polished, or interesting: Pick 2

The year is now 2023. Apparently we're doing New Year's Reminders and not Resolutions. Our reminders? Keep the momentum going, keep the experiments going, and keep the content going! Francis has started off with starting a new Substack. It's a channel for him to talk about the more introspective & philosophical stuff that he enjoys talking about. His first post talks about the feeling of being disappointed with your output and the constant pains of trying to explain to others what you're doing.

There's something about creating new channels, or new places, for pieces of content to go. It helps your educe the friction to putting stuff out there. The simple act of having a place, and having it be public just works for some reason. That's what's been working for Ben, he's finally published a new version of his website, and just having it out there has him publishing more than he has in the past year combined.

It's not enough to just have the place to put the content, we talk about a model of making content where you have 3 things to consider: Polished content, interesting content, fast content (i.e. fast to create). You might only be able to pick 2 of those for each piece of content you produce. And it's worth acknowledging that this is a tradeoff you have to make (and that you're making it).

We really think we hit a good stride in the end, where we start talking about how injecting a little randomness in your content creation process might be a good idea if you're really trying to see how impactful your content can be. Trading off exploration (finding new avenues) vs exploitation (hitting what's already working) is something that you'll constantly be tweaking, and is really a great way to experiment and figure out what works for you. Who knows, you might get more results for less time (which is exactly what Ben has found with his new experiments in making reels).

We hope you enjoy this one, we love hearing your feedback, questions, and suggestions! Contact us on @makenowthinklater or send as an email at


Show notes

#11 - The impact of AI and being more than just a creative

AI is coming. It's getting better. It can draw now. The fear is real, your jobs are doomed—or are they? We have an off-the-cuff convo about AI art and what it means for the creative person trying to make their way in the creative industry. Spoiler alert: We aren't really concerned.

We don't know what's going to happen, no-one really does. We have some theories, some opinions, of what it might mean, but to be honest we think it's capable of amazing stuff but think the best thing to do as a creative is to adapt!

The AI cat is out of the bag, and however it may affect the job industry—we believe in being more than just creatives, with skills that AI's can't replicate, and being real problem solvers who are tasked with solving real world problems. Not just someone who is there to draw, or there to code.

An AI can't understand what a client really needs, it can't connect with other humans, it doesn't have the shared experience that so many other humans look towards and seek. You're more than just a creative person, and that's what we think you should lean into to survive the AI apocalypse!

Contact us on @makenowthinklater or send as an email


Show notes

#10 - Livestreaming, diversifying your skillset, and feeling behind

Ben and Francis are exploring the world of livestreaming. Not just for entertainment purposes, but to help them with creating their content! Francis uses it as a means to stay focused, and Ben uses it as a way to share what he's already doing. Since ben's already doing the drawing and painting—why not just share the process with others at the same time (and organically build a community on the side).

We also discuss the the more meta aspect of creating content, and how it compares to more traditional work-life balance approaches. We've never been "work-life balance" people. It's not just hard going against the grain, but explaining it to friends and family grows tiresome quickly. Especially when you don't feel like you're hitting the more traditional milestones of life and just start to feel behind amongst your peers.

Setting up your life to be more "antifragile", and setting yourself up to diversify your skillset is a good way to deal with unceratinty. That way when uncertain things happen, you're not just protected against them—but you grow from them, and that means that you start to seek them out more. Putting yourself out there in situations where there's uncertainty and the downsides are low, but the upside might be high is a good way to start getting more "lucky" in your life.

Contact us on @makenowthinklater or send as an email


Show notes

#9 - Balancing work and content creation, using work for "material", and reducing friction when you're procrastinating

The dream is to share what you do and what you know and to make a living from it. The reality is... You have bills to pay. That's the dilemma facing Francis as he considers taking up contract work to help take the pressure off. But the worry is that you might fall into the trap of the continual cycle of doing this and then find yourself not having the energy to build the dream you want to!

Ben & Francis talk about how to balance contract/part-time/full-time work with building an audience, and discuss some ways that you can use your work with you when you're trying to build an audience. Is there a way to use your work as "material" or to use it to put yourself in situations where you can build an audience while building in public?

We also talk about our tendency to be a bit too ambitious when trying to start a new project. Sometimes this ambitiousness gets in the way of you doing the most important thing—starting! Reducing the friction to start is so important (so you can improve the chances of you starting the thing), it's so easy to get caught up in the trap of finding the most optimal way to do things, or trying to make your production value high, or waiting for the perfect time to do something. You gotta trust that your best ideas are ahead of you! And anyway you learn so much more in the process of doing stuff, rather than the process of thinking about stuff.

Contact us on @makenowthinklater or send as an email


Show notes

#8 - Doing the "right things" but not seeing growth, being clear on your goals, and leaning into your curiosity

In this episode we have our first caller! @e1cassidy has been working on growing his following online, but has been finding himself hitting a wall recently. What has previously worked for him has stopped working, and he's finding himself not getting as much reward even though he's putting more effort in.

It can be so frustrating to have to feel like you have to constantly adapt to what the "algorithm" is doing, or what all the best practices are. At some point you start spending more effort on the mechanics of putting the post out rather than on the content itself. You might've put up with it when you were at least getting some followers, or getting some people coming in and seeing your stuff -- but if that starts to dry up, how can you find a way to keep going? Especially when all the joy has already been sucked out of it.

We always come from the place of bringing people along for the journey, finding your community, and creating in public (with the garage door open). And if there's one thing that is more important than anything else it's to find a way to enjoy it! If you burn out, or stick with a plan that is full of "best practices" but unsustainable, you won't be in the game for much longer. Making sure you can stick with it is 100% the most important thing.

We give some specific and more general advice and thoughts for @e1cassidy—and we open the floor to anyone else who would like to ask us a question! Send it to us in whatever format, short, long, medium, voice, via pigeon, anything! We love to hear from you and would love to help you reach your content creation goals as best we can!

Contact us on @makenowthinklater or send as an email


Show notes

#7 - Ben's first product: How much he made ($$), the launch process, and lessons learned

Prompted by a listener's request (thanks @prathav.jpg!), Ben has decided to reveal the good stuff. How much money he made from his first info product (dollar amounts $$). As of now it's been out for nearly 2 months, and after a stressful and long-awaited launch process, he's finally started to make some money after building an audience for a bit over a year.

It's one thing to build an audience, but there's some doubts when it comes to making money from an audience. You don't want to break any of that trust and reputation that you've worked so hard to build, but you do want to be able to make a living from social media. Monetising the audience can sound so transactional, but maybe a good way to reframe it is that you are providing value for others and getting paid for it. You're moving others forward in their lives, helping them get unstuck, helping them learn things, helping them save time, and it's ok to be paid for your services!

And when the time comes to start making some money, there's the question of what to build. There's so many options; Patreon, courses, sponsorships, products. Maybe a good way to look at it is to think about the products you like to consume. For Ben that's courses, he's a self-proclaimed course junkie. But making a full course seemed like a stretch for a first product, and he was very wary of getting into analysis paralysis so he decided to intentionally scope down what was in his product and reframe it all as an experiment.

We go through his entire launch process, including; why he decided to do a video walkthrough, why and how he decided to bundle a sketch note pdf, how he decided to market it to his audience, and what he would've done differently.

AND we reveal how much he made from it ($$), exact dollar amounts. We hope you enjoy!


Show notes

#6 - Should you be building world-class content, when's the right time to make a product, and building things that fit with your lifestyle

We're stuck (again). Eventually, to really get noticed you need to start making world-class content. It sounds overwhelming, it sounds unreachable, but the truth is you're probably much closer to being able to create world-class stuff than you think. We're stuck, because we're thinking about how can we really provide value to people (with the goal of eventually starting to make money from it).  How can we start making world-class stuff?

It's hard because really you don't know what world-class is, and just wanting to create world-class things doesn't give you the ability to create them. World class content doesn't exist in a vacuum, it depends a lot on your audience and it depends a lot on what you can uniquely provide. You are closer than you think to creating world-class content. You may need to intersect some of your interests, you may have a unique way of presenting your information, you may have a unique perspective which is world-class for other particular people.

Let me be clear, looking back on it, we are DEFINITELY overthinking in this episode. It's hard to know that you're doing that in the moment. We're getting caught up in the minutiae of things that really don't matter in the grand scheme of things. We say we should be thinking now, and making later, but really we probably shouldn't. I guess this is part of the struggle of going through this journey, it's a constant fight to realise that you are getting in your own way and trying to overcomplicate things. Note to self: Make now think later! You get most of the feedback you need to start finding your right audience, and creating getting product through the process of actually just putting stuff out there.

We do have some idea of what we want our content to look like. Extremely valuable, uniquely us, and actually useful to people. In reality we just need to keep putting stuff out there and stick to a plan that doesn't burn us out.

But when's the right time to create a product? Honestly, this is probably one of those things of "you'll know when you know". The audience will be the first to tell you. And when someone posts that Futurama gif of Fry yelling "shut up and take my money" it's definitely time. Keep in mind that your audience might tell you to do a Patreon, do streams, do whatever. But realise that they just want more from you, when you're picking something to do, make sure that you pick something that suits your lifestyle. If you don't want to put out content on a regular schedule, don't do Patreon. If you hate reading, don't write a book. You get to choose the format.


Show notes

#5 - Dealing with negative comments, focusing on the right numbers, and plans you can stick to

Francis has finally posted last week's tweet which prompts Ben to talk about some of his negative experiences on Instagram. For some reason, the negative comments always stick out the most — especially when they are about things that you, yourself already had doubts about. But that might just be a natural consequence of gaining more of a following. As you grow, so do the number of supporters, and so do the number of people that might potentially have something bad to say. Maybe it's best to just focus on the connections you make, the good comments you receive, and the people you have helped (but easier said than done).

The feedback you receive is important to make sure you're on the right track. But it's super easy to get hypnotised by the growing numbers and start to turn your attention towards optimising them at all costs. But likes and follows might look good for showing off to others—but in Ben's opinion, more qualitative things like comments, DMs are the highest quality data to pay attention too. And if you want a more numbers approach, looking at the save-to-likes ratio might be a good one (especially if your content is educational).

Don't forget the reason you started doing this in the first place, it isn't to collect likes and follows (likes and follows don't pay the bills). We always say the best way to get going with this is to do something you enjoy, and take the enjoyment from knowing you're improving in creating whatever you're creating. Then eventually you'll find what resonates with others and what they find valuable, and then you can work to monetise it.

Doing something you enjoy makes it easier for you to stick to a plan. Even if you could be doing more, or if there's a more "optimal" plan out there, it's not worth anything if you can't stick to it. And then once you've made that simpler plan a habit, that's when you can start working on adding more, or being more efficient. Remember this quote from the software world, "premature optimisation is the root of all evil". Don't worry about scaling your efforts in the beginning. Get going first. Do the unscalable things first.

We'd love to hear any feedback or comments. Find us on Instagram @makenowthinklater, or email us


Show notes

#4 - Francis has a secret, sharing personal stuff is hard, and the pros and cons of being judgmental

Francis tells Ben a secret... He has a tweet thread in his drafts and he's been too chicken to post it.

We talk about the feelings behind what makes pressing that post button so hard, especially when the post is about personal stuff. But really, the personal stuff can be the most valuable content, and being vulnerable in public can be a surprisingly effective strategy.

Maybe this hesitation comes from the fear of being negatively judged in public. And maybe we only have that fear because we're so judgmental when we look at other people's content, and make a judgement on whether that content suits or doesn't suit our taste. It's tricky, because we need the ability to be judgemental so we can develop a taste, and figure out what we actually like. But if we give in to that judgement too much, it makes us haters and that's just not good for anyone.

The hard part is finding that balance, and we don't have much good advice for how to find it. It really depends on you. If you're able to frame your judgement in a way that takes into account the circumstances, contexts, and experiences that other people are facing, then that might be a good way to be able to keep the judgement in check.

I wish we could say we are being super altruistic in trying to control the extent of our judgement, but really we do it so that we can feel comfortable sharing and posting the things we are creating. It's hard to put yourself out there. To put yourself in a vulnerable position to be judged and commented on by faceless internet haters, but maybe this process will help us be more comfortable doing it.

If you don't like the content in your niche, because the style or format doesn't appeal to you — then it might be a good opportunity to create content in a style or format that appeals to you. And if it appeals to you, there's a good chance it appeals to others. That's a good way of turning your judgment into something productive.

Ok, ok, this isn't Dr Phil. This is Make Now, Think Later. We're exploring why it's so hard to post things, and we hope this episode resonates with some of your troubles in the getting started of getting started.

Got any comments? Send them through to @makenowthinklater on Instagram, or email

We hope you enjoy this episode ✌️

Show notes